Inside the Collective | Origin Sessions 04 | Grace Clapham | Stop Chasing More, Design Value

In this episode of Inside the Collective, Brad Amos sits down with Grace Clapham, a systems thinker, community architect and founder whose work spans technology, social change and conscious business.

Together they explore what it means to reject the traditional career script, build a portfolio life around instinct and reflection, and design communities that create real belonging rather than surface-level engagement. Grace shares what she learned from building communities across regions and platforms, why most brands underestimate the time and care community requires, and how her thinking has shifted from chasing scale to defining value more honestly.
A conversation about leadership not as performance, but as knowing your own pattern, rhythm and signal well enough to lead from it.

This episode is part of the Origin Sessions, the first six conversations that shaped Inside the Collective before Season 1. Recorded early and released as a set, they capture the show finding its voice.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:01

Welcome to Inside the Collective, where we dig into the thinking behind how people work. A quick note before we get started, this is one of our origin sessions. Six early conversations recorded when the show was still finding its shape. It's grown since then, but the thinking in these still holds up. If you want, jump to season one, episode one, or stick around for this origin session. Production's a little rougher, but the conversation's worth it. Let's get started.

SPEAKER_02 0:30

Nice to meet you, and thank you for taking the time to uh um share some insights with us. Um for those of you watching long, that's a positive pre-COVID. So if you see me blowing my nose or coughing or looking horrible, that's what it is. All right. Um, Grace, we're gonna just jump straight in. Um in some of the lectures and and writings, I've seen you mention that you don't fit into boxes, so you design new ones. What's a box that you had to break out of to lead the way that you do now?

SPEAKER_00 1:00

Gosh, that's a great question. Um, you know, I think the box I had to break out of was a traditional career. Um, you know, finish high school, finish university, um, get a job, go down the traditional career um trajectory. That that definitely has been my biggest box that I've had to um I've had to break in my life. Um being half Asian, you know, I my mother is like become a doctor, a lawyer, and like have a really good career and make good money in a traditional career. Um, but I broke that box in 2008. So since uh end of 2000, actually end of 2000, yeah, so it's end of 2008, after my first job in Australia, I worked for a fashion company um called Gorman. And after then, I've been on my own doing my own things um and not following the traditional career trajectory.

SPEAKER_02 1:56

How has mom adopted to your non-traditional roles?

SPEAKER_00 2:00

Sorry.

SPEAKER_02 2:01

How has mom adapted to your non-traditional roles?

SPEAKER_00 2:04

I mean, she's got three very non-traditional kids. So let's be real. She's probably she's struggling, but she's, you know, 70 now, so she's had a few years to deal with that. Um, but definitely tough because neither myself or my two sisters um have had a traditional career. I'm actually the more responsible one, you know, where I actually have a job that maybe makes sense. Uh whereas my sister's like a death duela slash like, you know, many other things. And my younger sister was a naturopath slash like all other things too. Um, so mine's a bit more of the normal side, let's say.

SPEAKER_02 2:43

My brain's just screaming correlate causation or correlation.

SPEAKER_00 2:48

I blame it on my father.

SPEAKER_02 2:51

Um, from meta to untamed and worth club, how do you decide which containers are worth building and which systems need reimagining?

SPEAKER_00 3:01

Yeah. So I mean, let me explain a little bit because each of them sort of work in different ways. Or so there's sort of like three levels of playing here. One is the community side. So building and creating communities. That's untamed, that was, you know, whether it was creative mornings that we run in Singapore, um, uh, you know, secret women's business, various other communities that I've built or brought into the region. So that was really like the community aspect of growing the ecosystem, finding gaps and figuring out what does the what does the not just on a local level level, but what does the region need and how can I do that from a community building effort? Then there's like the company and the organizations that I set up. So right now there's um, you know, designing communities, which I run with Pung, um, which is focused on our community work um and community strategy. Then there's the Worth Club, which is a newer piece for me and actually has been something I've been brewing on since 2022. And that's really around um, you know, creating a new framework around uh worth-centered leadership. So it's something in evolution. Um, and that's my my passion around um, you know, leadership, development, personal development. Um, and that's a space that I can explore all of these different dimensions that I want to write about under, you know, a bigger umbrella of self-worth and well-being. Um, and so that's where I do my coaching, that's where I do like my talking, my you know, presentations. Um, so that's kind of like the business side. Oh, and thanks, Nathan. My worthy Wednesdays. This is where like the worth club is like my creative outlet at the moment. And I don't know where it's gonna go, how it's gonna eventuate, but you know, it's something that I just have this innate gut calling for. Um, and and then the change school was also a business um that I had with my previous business partners. So there's sort of like the two levels that I work on the community, building the community, and then the businesses that I have, right? Um so how I choose things, I don't know if any of you have done your human design, but I'm actually just writing a four-part series on sacred. Okay, Paolo, you've done it. Okay. So I am huge into personal insights and tools and assessments. And um, you know, this gives an element or those tools help me sort of like trigger a bit more of a systems thinking approach, but also kind of reaffirm how I'm wired, right? Um, so I'm a manifesting generator in human design. Are you two? So I'm a manifesting generator, and that means that I don't like one thing. I am just not built to do one thing. I am really good at like zero to two or zero to one, and um, because I can sort of see the gaps, and that's how I work is I see where are the gaps, how do I fill them? Do I create them either through a community or do I create it through a business or do I create it through partnerships, right? Um, and so knowing that, I now I'm like, oh, this all makes sense. And I've really, you know, I I live by design in that sense, and that's how I kind of go with things. And as a manifesting generator, your strength is to go with like your gut feeling. So if something goes hell yes, you kind of do it. And I that's how I work. And there have been times in the past where I've said hell yes to something, and then I'm like, actually, like after I've thrown it out into the audience or the world, like a month later, I'm like, actually, I'm really bored with this. I need to scrap it and move on. And that's also the beauty though, where it's like I'm not really attached to anything. I used to fear being like, oh, if I put this out there and then, you know, two months later or six months later, it no longer serves me or doesn't feed my energy. I need to still stick with it because I had like guilt or shame or feeling like I would be a failure if I didn't stick with it. Um, but that is no longer how I do things. Um, and now I just know, like I've known probably since 2012 more so it's like that's how I work. Um, I need to find gaps or I work really well in I identify gaps, I create opportunities for them, either create them or work with companies and organizations and places that do or can have that space. Um, and uh and that I'm not built to be in roles that are already established. I'm just built into I'm better built to be in roles I create or that are entirely new, um, such as even the meta role was a completely entirely new function in the organization when I when I brought it. So I know that's a really long way of answering your question, but did that kind of answer your question?

SPEAKER_02 7:41

Absolutely. It's raised another question for me. You you mentioned that you, if I heard you correctly, you've transitioned a bit to faster um a faster process of letting go when you find it's not right. What did you use to make that decision?

SPEAKER_00 8:01

You know what? It's a lot of personal reflection and maybe imposter syndrome in the past because I mean I always felt from like when I first set up my first business agent Grace in 2000, end of 2009, early 2010, I just was not doing things in the way that like I wasn't following that corporate trajectory. So when I first moved to Singapore, it was like everyone was still working in the corporate space. And I had already set up my first agency, right? Or the first business. And it was there that I was like, am I doing the right thing? I'm not even making money, I'm making like peanuts, should I be doing this? That sort of stuff, right? Um, and I think that took me a while, um, for sure. I think so, definitely a lot of reflection, but I think the trigger moment were actually I have two trigger moments that catalyzed me into like the next stage of me. One was when my grass, it's like death in both periods. So one was my grandma, um, my oma, she died in 2008. And that was when I actually realized I wanted to leave my full time, my first full-time role at Gorman in the fashion company. Um, and timing just worked out really well because the company had sold. So it just worked out really well. Um, so 2008 was my first sort of like, whoa, who am I? What am I living for? What what really moves me? And um the second was in 2011, which definitely was like the biggest catalyst was, and I've talked about this in in you know, um many presentations, many talks. Um, that was when my dad died. And um, that was when I realized that actually I don't want to do agent grace in the way that I had it before. I actually want to do other things. And that's when I really started to um focus my efforts and my energy working in the space of social impact, um building and launching the change school, because I saw so many people who are at this point of like realigning life's choices with life's values, which is what the change school stood for. And so we worked B2C, but we also worked B2B with organizations and designing programs around um organizational pivots. So those two moments for me were really like the the catalyst. But then over the time, it's also just like constant reflection. And as a manifesting generator, I'm a five-two. So I'm like a um the two is a bit of a hermit. And so I need to have me treats. And I've always had me treats like now I have two kids, it's a little bit harder. My me treats are probably in the bathroom or you know, going out for a 10-minute walk before they were like weeklong retreats. And um, I realized that that is my process. I need to like go out into the world, gather all the info and the sort of like just like everything, absorb everything. Um, and then come back and take time and like not listen to what anyone else says, maybe not even. I mean, most of the time I fall off the planet. And if like I didn't have a husband, people would probably wouldn't know where I was um because I wouldn't respond to anything and I just wouldn't care if like you know, someone hated me. But yeah, it's taken a lot of time for sure. And and I definitely still sometimes like go, is this is this in line with my brand? And yeah, and then I'm like, you know what, who cares? My brand will be something to different tomorrow.

SPEAKER_02 11:23

Sounds like private distillation is helping you make the decisions.

SPEAKER_00 11:28

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 11:30

Um, you've led everything from global tech communities to intimate transformation retreats. What have you learned about building true belonging at scale?

SPEAKER_00 11:41

Oh, that's a great question. Um, I I think it's really knowing the, and this is a bit cliche, but really knowing like the the needs and the desires of the people you're serving um and building a space that can be co-created. Um, you know, at Meta, uh when we were looking at some of the largest and most engaged communities, so our role or my team's role at Meta was to work both on a product level and on a um partnerships level. So we sat under the product partnerships team. And so our work was really around designing better products to enable more meaningful engagements, community, connection, et cetera, and sense of belonging. And in every one of the communities, I mean, you know, everything from like the largest, let's say, photography group or meme group, all the way through to like the largest breastfeeding support group for Indian mothers or this, even sometimes the most smallest groups, right? Like across various, various verticals. Everything was around a strong sense of like serving based on pain points or based on like connection points, right? So photography, it's like pain points, even around what how you do photography, right? What tools you use, right? There's pain points in so many different dimensions when you think about it. But um, you know, and when we created it for the change school or various other ones, creative mornings, all of this, it's finding a space where people can feel like they they are okay, right? Um, and I think that's the most important thing. Like, and then co-creating it with them.

SPEAKER_02 13:34

What blind slot do you often see when companies try to build a community? And how do you help close those gaps?

SPEAKER_00 13:42

Oh gosh, I mean, I think with companies, there's such a desire to want to build communities because everyone thinks it's like, you know, the the easiest way for you to get advocacy, ambassadorship, loyalty, you know, retention, um, all of these sort of things. But there's an underestimation around how one um needs to like the amount of energy and time and effort it takes, right? And if it is not something on the long-term sort of roadmap and that you don't have appetite for like the long-term journey, then it's very quickly, it's very easy to sort of not have the impact that you want. So I would say uh misalignment of expectation to uh input required and um you know, time required, um, you know, to just like let it let it live, right? Like because community is easy to start. And I always say this community is super easy to start, but very hard to sustain. Engagement and sustainment is the toughest thing. And um, you know, every brand I've seen that wants to, more so in Asia, let's be real. Um, they want fast, quick, and easy, right? Whereas I do and have seen when we are working with brands in um in Meta. So at Meta, we did also support brands. So we supported like Airbnb and their communities, right? Canva and their communities, Starbucks, Peloton, you name it, a lot of the big brands. But what I saw in those markets, because of the maturity of those markets, I think, there there definitely was a lot more um understanding of like community is a long-term game, right? And also community can play across the multiple, across the life stage of your audience, but also your business. It doesn't just sit as marketing, it's customer success, it's product innovation, product feedback, product design opportunities. Like community can fall across so many different areas of a business need. And I think that is also another area that is misunderstood because often people see community as just a marketing avenue or a channel. Um, and they think they're having a newsletter as a community. It's one touch point for your community. So yeah, I think just to summarize, it's probably like one misalignment of like, you know, effort versus time. Um, time both like that that you input, but time for it to actually sustain and get to a level of like almost individual, um, you know, where the community feeds itself. And then the second, I would say, um, is like a misalignment on where it sits or how it impacts your business, right? Um, and and that piece around everyone thinking it's around marketing. Um, and then the third is like, you know, really just um the understanding of how to benefit or use community um for your your organization's needs.

SPEAKER_02 16:42

Awesome. Um you you've described your life as a portfolio life. What advice would you give to someone starting to shape their own?

SPEAKER_00 16:52

Well, first I would say sense check if it works for you because I think there's a bit of a entrepreneurship, uh celebritism of entrepreneurship and portfolio life. And it's not for everyone, right? I mean, I think you know, there are periods where I love it, and there's periods where I loved, like when I was at Meta and I could just get really deep into something and build something. So um I think there's a couple of things to consider is like understanding yourself, right? Like what moves you, what drive drives you, where's their energy getting drained? Um, what are like those are where assessments are so valuable, whether it's like strength finders, gallop, or you know, like human design or whatever these assessments are, like the more you better understand yourself and who you are and how you move, the more you will be in flow, right? And I'm like a huge advocate of being in flow. And that then will help you decide, okay, am I one to wear multiple hats, right? Because it requires a lot of compartmentalization. And to be honest, like there have been times where I'm like, oh my God, I'm doing so many things. I need to like figure out which one really sits with me, right? But because I'm so like, yes, that's amazing. I love it, I love it. Um, so I would say understand yourself, really then carve out and decide, okay, what are your priorities? Is it like um specific career goals? Is it financial? Um, is it stability? All of these things, right? And and like kind of define them. If it's about autonomy, what does autonomy mean for you? How does a portfolio life potentially fit into your definition of autonomy? If financial goals are a priority, then maybe think about like having your full-time job and then building and testing something on the side if it's possible, right? Like um, and experimenting. Or I uh, you know, the other part is trying to do like mini career experiments, right? So maybe you test, and this is what we used to do at the change school too when someone was wanting to shift careers, is we would be like, create a like six-month roadmap or a three month, depending on your timelines and your priorities. Because if finances is a huge priority, then you're gonna have different like metrics that you need to follow and timelines. But then build a career experiment over that time in the areas that you really want to test and learn and from there reflect if that like gives you energy or drains you because uh yeah, I I again I think it's um not for everyone.

SPEAKER_02 19:24

What was your biggest unlock moving from a role like Meta into the current era of co-founding and ecosystem shaping?

SPEAKER_00 19:33

You know, before so I was at Meta for almost five years. Pre-Meta, I was running my own businesses for 12 and various different community efforts, right? Um, and when I was first approached for my role at Meta, I was like, what? Why would I want to work for an organization? I mean, I've been on the other side for 12 years. Am I crazy? You know, um, and then I went on this me treat and it just kind of was perfect timing because with the change goal, we sort of evolved and like um had sort of like passed on our B2B side of the business and sort of exited that. Um and it was just it felt the right time. It was like this this right thing. When I left Meta, to be honest, unfortunately, we were spat out of Meta because our team was totally impacted. So it was like in my mind, I was like, okay, two more years, um, get myself to a certain stage. I was building a few things on the side, I was doing like my Worth-centered leadership framework. And the universe was like, Grace, you've probably been manifesting this for two years, wanting to do your own thing back again. And so I'm like spitting you out in the world. So that's what happened. So I could see it as a um, you know, I was able to see those signs. Um, but it took me a while because I think what I'm used to doing is I'm used to being like, this is the direction I'm going in, right? I'm making the choices. And when you get spat out of an organization and your team, your entire team and your entire org is impacted, you're throwing back into the world and you're like, I wasn't ready for this. Um, so it took me a while. And um, and then to be honest, I think the last 18 months has been a bit of a um reshaping and removing layers of like what I thought I wanted to do when I first came out. And I know I connected with Nathan um and David on this, was like, okay, I'm gonna do community strategy. That's what I know, that's how I do it. Like, that's I can I can do all of this. And the more that I got sucked into doing a lot of that stuff on a fractional level, the more I realized actually it's not really deep down the only thing I want to do. So I had to kind of peel back and go, okay, if money was no object, what would I really want to do? And that's when I started to expand. So, you know, I started to partner with the elevate group. So everything I do is in partnership. I never, except for the worth club, that's currently right now something that's just me, but the elevate group, I partner with two other women, you know, and they bring me in for the strengths that I. Have same with design and communities, the same with pong. So for me, it's like where can I fill in the gaps that I want to do that also add value? And um, and then now what I'm trying to do is divide my percentage of time after now having 18 months to really reflect to go where does my heart really go? And maybe it's more like 10% advisory and or 20% advisory work and board roles, you know, like 40% in like fractional work, and then the remainder in like elevate and um and my worth club stuff and speaking gigs. So that's kind of how I've divided my time at the moment. Um, but hey, that could change by December too.

SPEAKER_02 22:46

You mentioned um value a couple of times, and and from what I've read, you often talk about value architecture. What does it mean to design with values rather than just metrics or market share?

SPEAKER_00 22:58

You know, I think it it can be metrics and market share. So the reason I started to use the word value was because I think we don't question enough what is the value that we want to create as a business, as an individual, right? Um, so like for me, I think value is is important for everyone and for organizations. But to really be clear, like if we're trying to drive X value, what are the metrics that we need to have around that? Because every business needs to have some level of metrics versus is you know, just more money or you know, just more customers. Like the value has to be an exchange of both a win-win for the customer that you're having, plus also the business, obviously. But so often businesses are like, I need to just get more customers, I need to, you know, make more money versus being like, well, all of those things are possible if you really understand like the value exchange that you're going to be creating for your audience that can be sustained, right? Because you can get new leads, but those new leads may not be, you know, um the right leads. You can gain 10,000 followers, but you're probably better off having 2,000 followers who each of them would buy multiple of your products. And I think that's where I'm looking right now at like this misalignment of like what we define as value based on external and societal conditioning of like more is better, but in actual fact, it's not. Like there, there's been, you know, uh there's so many examples where, and even um Kevin Kelly, right? He talks about thousand true fans, right? And I think as a society, we've just been driven by this like we need more followers, we need more customers, we need more money. But instead of going, actually, what about the customers we already do serve? And how do we give more value to them so that they stick and they stay, right? Um, and bigger is not better. And as we see with AI and all of this, I really do believe that we're gonna start going, we're gonna have more small of these types of collectives, like the Carrot Collective, all working like individuals or smaller organizations working together to create value in their own ways, in the ways in the spaces or the places that they play in, but to create more collective value as well. And that is something why I just I've always been a believer, whether it was agent grace or anything, I never hired people full-time. I worked with people who are were already doing what they do and we came together and we co-created. And, you know, like so. I feel like we need to rethink what value, what it what are values are we driving that are not traditional, that have not been like ingrained in us or um, you know, is not what we're used to being told, right? Like, and that's I think like something that I'm just kind of processing a lot right now is um, you know, we're right, we're driving over the wrong the wrong uh metrics. Like I said, more growth, more revenue, um, versus like actually understanding the people and the the those who we serve.

SPEAKER_02 26:13

Sounds like you're um collecting smart, like-minded people through every move that you make.

SPEAKER_00 26:20

Hopefully.

SPEAKER_02 26:22

Um, if someone in the collective asked you how to lead with more soul, what would you tell them?

SPEAKER_00 26:29

Gosh, I mean, um, you know, I mean, I'm just gonna say it again, like I feel like more soul for everyone is so different. And it's you you're gonna attract the right people. You're gonna be you you are gonna be singing to your own heartbeat, you know, like we're all weirdos in this world, right? Like I feel like we need to understand ourselves better, and we don't because we have been conditioned to be like the good girl or the good guy or the great mom or the you know, amazing partner, um, or like the the you know, a great leader in what like all the books tell us to do. But what we're missing is our own signal and our own understanding. And I think that truly comes with like sitting with yourself and like maybe now Chat GPT and being like, hey, here's like my, you know, all my assessments, my enneograms, my Meyer Briggs, but also here's like my thoughts. This is what like this is my circadian rhythm. This is what gives me joy. This is what I've realized doesn't give me joy. And really like looking at it every so often and being like, am I walking to my pattern? Am I walking to my rhythm? And that is, I think, soul leadership, right? I think we are always trying to step into someone else's shoes of what the world says. This is what a good leader is, this is what like a great CEO or a great entrepreneur looks like. Um, but there's so many different dimensions of that. Um, as long as you don't hurt people along the way, right? As you're like owning yourself and your power. But I do feel we have lost our connection to ourselves and our sense of self-awareness. Um, and I think that is also where we're seeing a lot of um disconnect and loneliness and um division in the world.

SPEAKER_02 28:38

Um, what would you do? This is our traditional last question. What would you do if you were not afraid?

SPEAKER_00 28:46

Well, afraid of what? Because I don't like like, you know, I don't like hiking or like jumping off cliffs and that. So it's just so my husband would probably tell me that's what I should do is like go bungee jumping and stuff like that. Um, but everything else, I'm not really, I mean, you know, I don't have a lot of fear around like work stuff. Like I feel like I kind of do what I'm already fearful of, probably. Um so I don't know. I feel like I could probably be a little less fearful around the adventurous stuff in my life. I'm not very adventurous.

SPEAKER_02 29:26

So you're not coming rock climbing with me?

SPEAKER_00 29:28

Unless it's indoors and I get to wear like a full harness and it's like, you know, like the ones in Singapore where everything's got like perfect padding. Then no.

SPEAKER_02 29:38

I think we have different goals on that. So awesome. Um, thank you so much, Claire. Um, that's a wrap for this episode of Inside the Collective. Um, thank you to Grace for the chat and to everyone listening in. Um, it's conversation like this that help us get better at what we do and how we do it together in the care collective. So I appreciate you being a part of it and looking forward to seeing what you shape next.

SPEAKER_00 30:00

Thank you. Thanks for having me.

SPEAKER_02 30:01

Thanks, Grace.