Inside the Collective | Origin Sessions 02 | Libbi Rigby | Projects Fail on Trust, Not Design

In this episode of Inside the Collective, Brad Amos sits down with Libbi Rigby, strategic development and place advisor, to talk about what it really means to create destinations rather than simply deliver spaces.

Drawing on work across cities, universities and airports, Libbi shares how preparation, trust and translation shape better outcomes in complex development environments. They unpack the three questions she uses to get to the heart of a project, why diplomacy matters, how she navigates difficult stakeholders, and why empathy is not a soft skill but part of the job. The conversation also explores the limits of current policy, the challenge of getting non-tangible value recognised early, and the importance of building environments where people can do their best work.

A conversation about how better places get made and what kind of people help make them possible.

This episode is part of the Origin Sessions, the first six conversations that shaped Inside the Collective before Season 1. Recorded early and released as a set, they capture the show finding its voice.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:01

Welcome to Inside the Collective, where we dig into the thinking behind how people work. A quick note before we get started, this is one of our origin sessions. Six early conversations recorded when the show was still finding its shape. It's grown since then, but the thinking in these still holds up. If you want, jump to season one, episode one, or stick around for this origin session. Production's a little rougher, but the conversation's worth it. Let's get started.

SPEAKER_02 0:30

I'm Libby. I'm based here in Australia. I have been working in the broad development industry for over 20 years now. I'm a proud mother of two young boys who keep it really real for me. And uh it's been a really interesting journey up until now joining the Carrot Collective. And I'm really excited to kind of see what happens. And I guess you'll probably learn a little bit more about me in the questions. So don't want to uh start with, you know, any shocks too early.

SPEAKER_01 1:08

Um how would you describe the work that you do to someone that has never heard of place strategy or urban development?

SPEAKER_02 1:17

Um well, look, I think that the work that I want to do and like to do is the creation of destinations. And that is, I think a lot of that is built in coming from my multidisciplinary background, um, kind of using my background in marketing and brand um and in design management and experience design. And I think it's more about creating the destination uh versus the place or the space itself. Um we all I'm sure we all have favorite destinations and everything can be a destination if we uh if we want it to be.

SPEAKER_01 2:02

And what would some of the projects that you've delivered be like, just so that we get an understanding of what those destinations look like for for what you create?

SPEAKER_02 2:12

Um I've done a lot of different work and they're at different different phases. So um I've worked very, very upstream on the creation of a new city in New South Wales uh and setting the um place sort of vision and strategy for that. Uh that was in a bid environment. Uh so that was a that was quite a big one. But also at the same time, um, I was lucky enough to work alongside Nathan on a university here in Queensland, um, and that was under construction, but it was still around getting the um the student experience and the staff experience and also engaging more with the local community. Uh, so it's it kind of is place or you know, it's sector agnostic. Um, so I've worked across most sectors now. I've worked on eight or six airports uh across the globe uh in a wayfinding capacity, leading the kind of navigation and uh customer experience strategy for those. So it's pretty, it's pretty diverse.

SPEAKER_01 3:23

Cities to airports. Well, that's that's cute. Um when you think back on your earlier, um, think back to earlier in your career, what advice would you give yourself about working in complex evolving industries like property development?

SPEAKER_02 3:40

Uh look, my number one rule is always be prepared for a meeting. It's really, really simple. I think I always strive to be the most prepared person in the room. I don't pretend to know what everyone, there's a lot of different specialists in the room often. And I just need to ensure that I'm really prepared so I can have really um good conversation and active conversation and build trust and relationships early. Um so I think I mean I live by that now. So yeah, I've you know, I've been shocked where I've walked into meetings before, not prepared, and it's it's never never feels good.

SPEAKER_01 4:21

So tell me what prepared looks like to you.

SPEAKER_02 4:25

Um I like to understand who's in the room and what they're bringing to the table. Uh, I like to understand if it's there's multiple people, you know, as part of the company that I'm working for, that I understand what my role is. Um and I like to ask kind of three kind of critical questions, which is around um what does success look like to them? Um, if the project fails, what have they got to lose? And what are the things that are keeping them up at night? And those kind of three questions give me a really solid foundation for navigating the complexities of the project uh and going back to reminding, you know, clients what success look like and also then reminding um the teams, the design teams that I'm working with what we've got to lose if we get it wrong. So it just gives some really good parameters. I don't ask them word for word like that, but ultimately try to understand those kind of three core things.

SPEAKER_01 5:27

I never think of a situation where those three questions wouldn't help, and I'm struggling.

SPEAKER_02 5:33

Totally. And I can't tell you how many times it's got me out of a sticky situation with some uh, you know, okay clients.

SPEAKER_01 5:45

I see you have a very refined sense of uh diplomacy.

SPEAKER_02 5:50

I think it's part and parcel of having to um also be a woman in the property industry and uh shoulder up into some of those meetings. So diplomacy is my friend.

SPEAKER_01 6:02

Nice. Um I love that. I love that. Um so when you're helping um a project balance with the market demands, what the community needs, and what's financially viable, what process do you follow to find the best path through that?

SPEAKER_02 6:20

Um look, I think kind of following on from the question before, I look to build trust and relationships early on. It gives me more permission to have those conversations and push for the right outcomes throughout the project. Um, I have been working on really pulling apart and understanding the full development lifecycle. Um, and so just last week I sat down with a quantity surveyor. Um, and for those who don't know what a quantity surveyor is, they're the ones creating the cost plans very early on in the development for feasibility, how much a client can expect to spend. Um, and I just wanted to understand what goes into that, what thinking, what kind of um models and that they use. But then I interrogated her to try to find out how we might be able to bring in the non-tangibles into a cost plan early on, things like experience, things like visitation, whatever. Obviously, each project will have different metrics, but it would be really great if we could start to get those kind of non-tangibles but super, super important social, social measurements, um, cultural measurements, um, experience measurements, brand even. So, look, that's that's kind of always in the back of my mind. But ultimately, you know, the the industry has always worked on assumption. And what worked in the last project, they'll often do again. It doesn't necessarily mean it's going to work again, but trying to get developers to do things differently is really, really difficult. So I try to understand what their pressure points and their language is so that I can breadcrumb them towards the right outcome.

SPEAKER_01 8:07

You mentioned building trust is super important. How do you go about building trust with uh a prickly pair personality?

SPEAKER_02 8:18

Oh I look, I just uh language. I try to talk many, many languages. So I have learned to really understand the vernacular around commerciality and and feasibility and design. Um and by speaking their language and also really understanding the person. Um I, you know, that tends to help me kind of navigate through those different complexities, um, especially with many, many stakeholders. There's there's so many stakeholders in a big development that um I look just to understand the different language and what each of them got to lose, really. It helps build that kind of trust. And pick up the phone. If it gets really quickly, pick up the phone, understand what's going on. Um, often I've learned all too late the issues that are actually going at hand, which is influencing some of the decisions they're making. And if I had known them earlier, the decisions I could have navigated and created better outcomes. So, you know, if it's money, I need to know about it. If it's um board level pressure, we need to know about it and we understand what pressure they're under and help them navigate it.

SPEAKER_01 9:40

What sort of techniques or skill set would you leverage to get beyond the words that are being said and uncover the meaning or the hidden non-discussed items in a conversation?

SPEAKER_02 9:56

Um just being human. I mean, I look, I take a really personal approach. I'm a pretty intuitive person. I like to build relationships. Ultimately, I've always seen my role partly to really make the client look like a rock star. I mean, ultimately, that's what we're often there to do. Um, and so we're human, we've got things going on. And I think that, you know, I it's it's pretty simple for me. That's kind of how I go about doing it. And then can, you know, connecting the dots, as I said, understanding the languages that have been talked about and pulling, connecting all those different dots and threading, you know, threading the fabric together. Um, I think often, you know, whether I was working in a in a wayfinding league capacity or in um an experience design or uh destination design capacity, often we find ourselves right at the middle of everything. Um, and so it's a quite a unique opportunity where we are talking to everyone and able to kind of thread um, you know, thread things through and push things through. So um just building the relationships.

SPEAKER_01 11:15

Feels like empathy plays a big part in what you do.

SPEAKER_02 11:19

Uh yeah, hugely. But I I mean I live my life like that. I mean, I I want to treat others the way I want to be treated. And um yeah, a life life and people are messy, and uh often we have to design for that as well. So yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 11:37

What changes are you seeing whether in housing climate pressures or how people want to live and that are shaping how new developments are planned?

SPEAKER_02 11:46

Oh, not enough. Um, it's really hard. Look, that the city that I was talking about previously, I mean, you never really get that honor or the really the opportunity of creating a new city. And, you know, even early on in a bid context, you know, we were making sacrifices of life very early on. And so um I think I think it it's a top-down approach. I think uh I don't think we've at a policy level we are making any brave or innovative choices. Um and you know, I think that because of this like the market conditions and the struggles to make these projects stack up commercially and financially, means that uh, you know, without really a policy or, you know, a top-down approach to pushing them towards, you know, making sure they achieve, you know, a percentage of affordable housing, whatever it might be, I feel like that's the only way to kind of get the needle to, you know, kind of move a little bit. But then, you know, Brad, that not everyone's created equally. And I've worked some with some incredible developers that are looking to uh do things differently. Um, and ultimately I'm always looking to find ways to create better social and cultural and environmental outcomes that help raise revenue as well and diversifying their own financial models.

SPEAKER_01 13:21

How can you how do you guide someone who's very cautious towards uh being brave and innovative implementations?

SPEAKER_02 13:37

Um some you just can't, and I think um ultimately, you know, they're the sort of the the non-values aligned clients that I tend, you know, honestly wouldn't um feel that the investment of the type of work that you know I'm often sort of I'm often doing is really worthwhile. So, you know, you really have to get the right values aligned client, but again, it's it's education. And I think it's the the bread crumbing that I've talked about before, it if I'm educating them along the way, it means that they can take it up to board levels and confidently sell these things in. Um, but ultimately also just again, those questions right up front, knowing what some of their biggest pressure points are, means that we're constantly understanding that when we're trying to design the outcomes.

SPEAKER_01 14:32

Um, you you mentioned um certain clients and that fit. I think across the network, it it's probably a universal truth that the fit, the cultural fit with clients is critical to a successful outcome. What are the things that you have found successful in vetting a client before you jump in to make sure that there's an alignment there?

SPEAKER_02 14:58

Um it can be really hard. People can talk a really good game uh early on, but you can also look at their consultant team, like the type, the caliber of the team that they're surrounding themselves with. Um and ultimately, again, by kind of understanding those kind of critical and fundamentals up front, we can kind of understand a little bit more about how to push them towards you know bravery and innovation and and again um really ensuring that I'm speaking a language that they understand and is meaningful to them. It's a huge part of my job. Um, and I think in the more, you know, really in the last five years, I've been looking to really find ways to use the evidence that's in front of us, whether that be economic, whether that be market type information, and translate that towards better outcomes for people. So um translation's a huge part of it.

SPEAKER_01 16:12

Um when you feel shifting away from the logistics of it, but when you're feeling, say, overwhelmed or unfocused, um, or you've temporarily kind of lost your way or vision for a project, what strategies or mental models do you turn to to help yourself get back on track?

SPEAKER_02 16:30

Um, look, I usually call Nathan, uh, a vent, and uh look, I mean, you know, taking a breather, the 24-hour test is always a really good one. Uh, pick up the phone, speech to the client, understand what's going on. As tough as that can be, and as much as I often don't want to do it. Um, again, just getting to the crux of what's actually going on and why things are not progressing. Um, and if it's not the clients, it's talking to the architects or the consultant team to understand what's going on on their end, because often uh if the lead consultant is an architect and they're struggling with the client, then it's going to be really hard to have really collaborative working environment with them as well. So I think it's just about kind of trying to understand the environment in which we're working in. I don't think I've got a necessarily a strategy around that, but I think it's just trying to get to the bottom of what's going on and why. But you know, but I do still call Nathan and Vent.

SPEAKER_01 17:34

That's one of my we'll put we'll put Nathan's number up at the end so that everyone in the collective can just ring Nathan when they when they need to vent. You you've mentioned um research a couple of times. So when you're translating complex research into real-world plans for developers, what approaches have you found most effective for making those ideas clear and actionable?

SPEAKER_02 17:59

Um look, I think you know, research can be a bit of a dirty word sometimes, and it's often um comes, you know, it comes certainly to property developers as big dollar signs, which they don't tend to like to see early on. Um and so look, I my focus has been really working with the information we have at hand. If they've already done a lot of work, they are good at their jobs, there is market information out there, there is macroeconomic data, there's demographic data out there. It's about then taking what's available to us and putting it through the lens of, you know, experience and more human-centered outcomes. And I think by doing that, it's a much more leaner and quicker approach. It starts to set the trust early. And it means that often I find I can have much um more successful conversations around doing actual audience research, whether it be ethnographic or behavioral or whatever is required, depending on the problem we're trying to solve. Uh you know, we get to that point, especially if we're at a sticky point. I had a client that was um had was going through something called a state significant design process here in Australia. They'd gone through the first panel, they were not looking like they were going to get a good outcome. And it was a new, it was a different typology. It was a something called a build-to-rent and a hotel put together in a commercial zoning area in Sydney. Um, and so we very quickly got on board and did concept validation work. But they were already so far down the track that the problem was well and truly in front of them. And the money and time that had been spent to date, you kind of pushed their hand. And so in that case, we can move into real audience insights to truly understand what people want, what their unmet needs are, and design for them, whether that be physical or service or operational type design outcomes, um, you know, that conversation is much easier to have. The problems are already there. When we're much earlier on and they're just trying to get the feasibility to stack up, then we're looking at lean ways to try to build the evidence base behind making good decisions for humans.

SPEAKER_01 20:25

In that experience, um, what what did you learn about navigating complexity or change?

SPEAKER_02 20:33

Um, to hold things really lightly. I mean, I think it we have to it has to be adaptable. I know that we're talking about bricks and mortar and walls and things that are really solid and physical, but ultimately um we have to be able to adapt. And so whether that's the service layer that goes in, whether it's an experience layer that goes into the built environment, um, I think uh we just need to be able to work within the confines, depending on where we're at, but also build out other areas. Like I was working on a big residential mixed use, and the research and the work I was doing was creating a new strata model or a body corporate model so that they can look at other ways to generate revenue through their buyers. That don't necessarily mean it affects the price of the apartment itself. Um, and that then also fed into seeding community early. When it's a 10-stage development and you've got multiple people coming on board, they're also living in construction zones, seeding that kind of um community is important. Looking at different subscription type models is important. Um, and we just need to find other ways to make that feasibility stack up rather than you know, them losing some either vital space. Or something they really need in the actual physical space.

SPEAKER_01 22:04

You you mentioned holding on to things lightly. And given we all work in creative, passionate spaces, that can be challenging to hold on to something lightly opposed to holding on to, you know, till the very end. What do you do to make a decision as to when it's right to fight for something and when it's right to hold it lightly or let it go and move on to a different negotiating point?

SPEAKER_02 22:35

Um it usually comes down to a power, like it's the powers of deduction, really. You know, we've got if we're really clear on the vision, we're really clear on what success looks like, we're navigating ourselves towards that, then you know, very quickly I've learned that when we're thinking about, say, design or or human interventions, I very quickly test that with architects or other interior designers, whoever I'm working with, to really understand the viability of that stacking up. Um, recently for this city that I was talking about, uh, we I ended up working with an economist to put a to quantify visitation. So the idea was that the developer should be, and actually the development authority should be putting money towards creating a team lab type experience. And what that kind of big move, whilst it's very, very costly early on, um, it was about trying to trying to get quantify the visitation and what that was going to bring to the city and how that city was going to grow. And so um, you know, I think no idea is necessarily a bad idea, but you just got to do a bit of your own due diligence to make sure that it's kind of going to stack up and you can go into that meeting and have a really solid conversation. That went in, and um, I know that it was the only question that came back on the play strategy was understanding how we quantified visitation and um the revenue that could be generated through an experience in a destination like that. So it's good. That's that to me is good. They'll they're reading it.

SPEAKER_01 24:27

Great that they're picking up on that, on that particular point. Um, talking about teams, what patterns have you noticed in teams or projects that are truly successful in creating human-centered places compared to those um that appear to be community focused, only appear to be community focused on the surface?

SPEAKER_02 24:47

Um collaborate. Look, collaboration is really, really important. There's no one party that ever designs these types of things. It's it takes everyone to kind of come together. And it's and that's hard sometimes to create environments on that because we're all working to different timelines, to different um consultancy agreements, to different outcomes. Um, but I think that if we can all get ourselves aligned, um, then it means that we can, you know, help to get those better outcomes for the community. And um a lot of the work, the early research work um that I've been involved in when we're looking at just sort of basic desktop research is understanding some of the wicked problems and the trends in response so that we um can help kind of put a bit of a future focus on some of the decisions that we're making as well and be a bit more global in our thinking than just looking at the the kind of the micro of what's happening in that particular area, especially in Potter in Australia. We're pretty conservative.

SPEAKER_01 26:03

I noticed in your LinkedIn bio, and you just used the term there again, a wicked problem. Um, I haven't heard that phrase before reading it in your bio. Can you enlighten me on that a bit? What a wicked problem is.

SPEAKER_02 26:16

Um, look, the wicked problem, one of the wicked problems that we have spent so much time trying to design for is social isolation, especially after COVID. Um, that is something that is being felt, I think, across the globe. We're not designing for people to come together. We're not creating those systems as well as we should in a built environment kind of sense. Um, so that is one. I mean, another wicked problem is obviously climate. Uh, that comes up time and time again, and resilience. Um, and then cost of living is another, but you know, they're the kind of they're the really big kind of wicked ones that uh we look to understand the macro side of things and bring a local context to it. So um I was working for a religious organization, which obviously, as they own so much land, they were doing a really big mixed use development and in a really, really multicultural part of Sydney. Um, and we really found that it wasn't necessarily the people on the lower economic side, and it wasn't necessarily the people on the higher sort of economic side, it's the people in the middle that were missing out on all of the government support and subsidies because they're just making just a little bit too much. Um, and they are usually working three or four jobs. And so we're trying to kind of, you know, we were trying to design things to support them in earning a living whilst getting the right types of support when they're kind of in that missing bit of, you know, getting the support from whether it's a childcare subsidy or whether it be actual um what do you call it, government money? I can't even think of the word. What's the word? Um, so yeah, you know.

SPEAKER_01 28:20

Let's switch it up just a little bit. Um, so what's one belief or habit or mindset that you've adopted in the past few years that had has the biggest positive impact on your work life?

SPEAKER_02 28:33

Um uh learning to say no and not being afraid of it. I think um whether that be no my personal life or no in a work sense, again, I think we've talked about it a little bit, but not everything's created equally, and actually not everything is worth saying yes to. Um, there's a lot of strings attached to that. Um so that's been definitely a big one, but also just really backing my intuition and being empathetic. It it's it's in my it's who I am. And so why would I not be like that in a work environment as well? You know, my my greatest pleasure is creating environments for people to thrive in in a work setting as well. Um it's it's the most it's the most beautiful thing to watch people doing their best work. And if I can enable it by working with clients to enable them to do really great jobs that they're proud of, work that they're proud of, then it's a really great outcome.

SPEAKER_01 29:37

Such a beautiful sentiment in that, like creating an environment for everyone to be their best selves. Yeah, that's beautiful. Um, so in your experience, what are the best ways for creative teams like partners at Care Collective can work alongside you to strengthen projects and extend the impact of a place strategy?

SPEAKER_02 30:00

Oh um Just a short one. Yeah, that there's a lot of questions in that, I feel. Um look, I I think it's just collaboratively. I mean, I the property industry or built environment industry often is works in a siloed way and it just doesn't create the best outcomes. And so where we can bring the smartest people in the room in their given, like whatever their given expertise is to create the best possible outcomes, then why wouldn't we? I mean, I I have no problems not knowing the answer, and I'm really happy to call someone who knows better than me to answer those types of questions and bring bring them in on the project. I think it's kind of often one of my superpowers is to bring the right people together to solve the problem. Um, and then, like I said, try to create those environments for them to thrive in.

SPEAKER_01 31:00

If you're looking five to 10 years ahead, what shifts do you think we'll see in how people experience places, whether that's cities, neighborhoods, or digital spaces?

SPEAKER_02 31:10

Um, it's a really hard one to answer. I'd love to think that we're going to be, we're seeing something very different to what we're seeing today, but I'm worried we're not. Um, but I think I think that's a very Australian probably way of looking at it. I think there's some really great things happening globally. Um, there's some real innovative change and great social outcomes that are happening um within communities around the world. And I think as long as we keep learning from those and keep pushing for that change and bringing bits of that through the work that we do, then that's a really, really great outcome. But I mean, I'd love to see some more innovative policy change so that we are kind of we're pushing the hand, really. But otherwise, just keep advocating. Just keep advocating.

SPEAKER_01 32:05

So for those of us that that want to learn more, who's getting it right? Where do we look to to learn?

SPEAKER_02 32:12

Oh I don't I don't know whether it's uh who's getting it right. I think we need to look at places where we feel good in and places that are bringing people together. Like I've, you know, one case or benchmark that I spent quite a bit of time researching was Domino Park in New York. I've never been there, but the way in which they've threaded in community, environmental, um, learning, beautiful outdoor spaces, like it culture. It was just that to me as a benchmark, but I haven't been there, so I can't sort of get that sense. But from a benchmark perspective, that looked amazing. And so I think um there's lots of great work being done. Um, but ultimately, you know a really, you know, a really good space when you're there. You remember it, you want to go back. It's got destinational qualities, it makes you feel safe, it makes you feel joyful and happy, it makes you want to share it with your friends and family. Those to me are the really good markers of a great place.

SPEAKER_01 33:31

So if you could um time and space travel right now, where is the place that Libby would feel best in?

SPEAKER_02 33:41

Uh in a city or in a in a wherever wherever you want to pop up.

SPEAKER_01 33:48

It just exists.

SPEAKER_02 33:50

Gosh, there's a lot. I think a place that surprised me the most was Damascus and Syria. Um that was the most unbelievable experience because I just saw so much peace um there and so much tradition and culture. And um I just I loved the rhythm of the place. And it shocked me because I was I'd come from Aleppo, which was quite the opposite. But there was it's just totally different. And I saw real raw, pure kindness in a place where you know everyone's telling you to really watch your back, and you do watch your back, but you know, it was that was that was amazing, and I feel sad that I probably will never go back.

SPEAKER_01 34:38

Love, I love hearing about that. That's makes me want to go, but also the last little bit, maybe not so much.

SPEAKER_02 34:44

You should go. It's amazing.

SPEAKER_01 34:46

Um I just want to be respectful of your time. I know we're kind of uh coming up to our end, so um trying to make a bit of a tradition here with our closing question. Um, what would you do if you weren't afraid?

SPEAKER_02 35:00

Oh what would I do? I think I've written a whole list of things that I would do in my journal that I would do if I wasn't afraid. Um I would just I would be really, I would choose to say yes to all the things that honestly really bring me joy and not question whether or not I should be doing them. I think I think the freedom of doing what you want to do is such an uh amazing thing. But I feel like a lot of us, you know, we there's always something that holds us back somewhere along the way. So, you know, I'd love to just take my kids out of school and go travel the world and find out and you know, money not be an option, but you know, yeah, all those things are really hard to do right now. But, you know, so I think it's just being brave and saying yes.

SPEAKER_01 36:00

Um, Libby, I want to say thank you so much for your time, your insights, and welcome to the care collective. I believe you're about three and a half months in, so welcome.

SPEAKER_02 36:09

Yeah, it's been a wild ride so far. It's been good. Thank you.