Inside the Collective | Origin Sessions 01 | Jordi Morillo | Empathy, Craft and Design Leadership

In this episode of Inside the Collective, Brad Amos sits down with Jordi Morillo, Head of Design for Digital Platforms at U.S. Bank, for a thoughtful conversation about what design leadership actually asks of people now.

Jordi reflects on why great work alone rarely drives a career, why empathy and collaboration matter as much as craft, and why tools so often become a distraction from the real problem. They explore what makes someone indispensable on a team, how to stay adaptable without losing your principles, and why continuous learning should happen inside work hours rather than at the expense of life outside them.

A conversation about leadership, usefulness, and staying human while the industry keeps changing around you.

This episode is part of the Origin Sessions, the first six conversations that shaped Inside the Collective before Season 1. Recorded early and released as a set, they capture the show finding its voice.

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:01

Welcome to Inside the Collective, where we dig into the thinking behind how people work. A quick note before we get started: this is one of our origin sessions. Six early conversations recorded when the show was still finding its shape. It's grown since then, but the thinking in these still holds up. If you want, jump to season one, episode one, or stick around for this origin session. Production's a little rougher, but the conversation's worth it. Let's get started.

SPEAKER_00 0:30

So, yeah, so I'm uh Jordi Morino, I'm the head of design um for digital platforms at the US Bank. Um, I manage a team of 125 designers across the US and India, and we essentially do all the digital aspects that um everybody or every business in the bank needs. We identify customers, we bring them on board, we manage their um communications, documentation, um move the money at the bank and have the uh developer experience and the design system under me. Um and we serve our three segments, right? Consumer, uh business, and um corporate. Uh I've been working also at Square. Uh I've been working at a company called Saiismic, on a startup here in San Diego that does machine learning for B2B sales, and about too many years at HD uh in the beginning of my career doing almost everything they do uh in that company. I've been teaching a lot. It's a passion I have um to play forward a little bit and help um the new generations of designers to try to take advantage from my experience. And I've been teaching in Barcelona where I first met Astrid, and I've been teaching here in the US. Um it's something that I I continue doing because it's one of the things I enjoy the most um doing. So yeah, I think that's me and Nachill. I was born in Barcelona uh and ended up here in the US almost by accident, but uh I've been uh like 12 years of the last 15. That's the uh that's kind of what uh there was three years that we were back home in Barcelona to uh to lead another project, and then I was offered to come back. So that's kind of the uh yeah. I live in San Diego, uh married with two children. So that's kind of the uh thank you for that.

SPEAKER_03 2:33

Um teacher, I appreciate it. We're gonna um jump in with some quick hit questions and then we'll go to maybe some bit longer ones. Um so what's one tool that you can't live without?

SPEAKER_00 2:50

That's a very good one. Um I would say right now, either Chat GPT or Claude.

SPEAKER_03 2:57

Right. Um most underrated skill in a design leader community. Uh favorite design book or thinker right now.

SPEAKER_00 3:14

Uh thinker, John Maeda. Um book uh I love the books from Erica Hall. Um Justin of Research is a very good one uh because it's a very uh realistic understanding of what research can bring to design in business. So it's uh it's a fantastic book.

SPEAKER_03 3:37

Right. Um what is a design trend you wish would just go away?

SPEAKER_00 3:48

The the Lina startup methodology, uh it's terrible. I think it's been it's been a terrible, it's been horrible for the innovation industry uh as a whole. This idea of just keep throwing spaghetti to the world to see what sticks without uh any discovery effort or anything. I I think it's been so painful to watch. Uh it has destroyed a lot of the good things that were being built. And I think that honestly, digital experiences have gone way worse since that became kind of the mainstream trend. Hopefully it changes because uh it's been it it has impacted the industry so badly. Yeah that's horrible. That's been just uh hard to watch happening.

SPEAKER_03 4:41

I love that. Um this one is a short question, but maybe difficult to answer. Describe your design philosophy in three words uh empathy, um, collaboration, and craft.

SPEAKER_00 4:58

These are the three things I I laugh.

SPEAKER_03 5:06

Um how has a failure or apparent failure set you up for later success?

SPEAKER_00 5:16

Hard to choose one from. But uh yeah, there was one time that we convinced HP to do something nuts that was essentially building the perfect machine, right? The one that uh our clients had been always asking for. And we had gained enough credibility for the company to take that deb and invest a lot of money in it. The machine itself was a failure because it arrived 10 years later, right? So people were asking for those things for 10 years. However, it ended up enabling a number of modules that then enabled uh business strategies that had saved HP uh big time because they were able to create very low-cost components that they've been able to use for magic more expensive machines and be successful because they could sell very good machines at a very uh with a lot of profit now. Like uh and I remember being criticized big time for convincing them to do it, but I think at the end of the day they realize that they're still living out of what they created with that machine. So there were so many different things that they've been able to, and that's 15 years ago, they are still using it. So I think that's that's something that sometimes is hard to see, and it was hard to see at the moment, but there's been a lot of leverage from from that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 6:41

Um what's one of the most uh worthwhile investments that you've ever made? Like an investment in money or time or energy?

SPEAKER_00 6:50

Experiences is always the best investment, but travel is probably the best investment you can you can make.

unknown 6:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 6:56

That's uh that'd be that's the investment I never regret.

SPEAKER_03 7:05

Got uh our our niece is over here on her, she just turned 18 and she's traveling. It's amazing to watch her eyes open up and all the uh things that she's learning. It's fantastic. Um what uh what do you wish you had known earlier in your career?

SPEAKER_00 7:28

Probably that doing doing a great job is not enough for anything, right? That's a given. And I think that people think that because you work hard and you deliver um excellent quality, that's gonna drive your success and it's just uh a small percentage of it. I think there are other things around being easy to work with, uh being humble, being a good listener, being a leader, being someone that can create um the conditions for others to perform. Those things sound way more than doing uh a good job, right? So or or just working hard and delivering good outputs that's um you know made a lot of spend a lot of time working that I shouldn't have.

SPEAKER_03 8:13

It's uh it's a team sport. If you don't get the human interactions right, it doesn't work very well. Yeah. Um, what piece of advice do you find yourself giving junior designers over and over again?

SPEAKER_00 8:28

Honestly, not to get attached to anything I teach them, um, because things are changing uh really fast. That the only thing I'm sharing my experience um with them in case they can identify things that might be useful for them at some point, but not as a recipe or anything that they have to follow, because I think each one's career and each one's circumstances are very different, and even myself, I'm changing my playbook every day right now, right? Things are changing so fast that I'm not attached to anything. Um, the other one is number one goal for you uh is to make yourself indispensable. Um, and that's that's never written in any job description, but uh it's implicit in all of them, right? So and everything is on the table other than uh going against your own principles. No, I think that shouldn't be acceptable uh unless you need the money, and in that case, I'll never judge. But uh I think that's um that's kind of what I try to tell them.

SPEAKER_03 9:40

But uh so in in your world, what are the things that make your teammates indispensable?

SPEAKER_00 9:50

I think it's uh understanding that the problem will always remain the same, like uh solving people's needs or people's problems while driving business outcomes. But that's the only immutable thing, no, like everything else is at stake. The way we work, uh, who would do we work with, uh, then being good listeners, being good collaborators, being able to understand how to connect what we do with the business outcomes. Uh I think what what makes you be indispensable is when people see that when you are given or when you are part of a team, that team delivers. Um and they just keep coming back. I think that's kind of the um what makes you indispensable at work.

SPEAKER_03 10:40

You um you mentioned that one of the things that you're looking for is uh ability to adapt and evolve and to not stick too rigidly to one thing. How do you uh create a structure for yourself to get an outcome while being fluid and adapting to all of the elements that come through?

SPEAKER_00 11:02

Yeah, I think in in essence, um if the pro if if the basic is to or the basic challenge is to solve people's problems and and drive business outcomes, uh design is always the it has two kind of general phases. One is um identifying the right thing to build, and the second one is to build it the right way. Uh and then anything goes, right? As long as you find the fastest possible way to identify what's the right thing to build, the one that really solves the right problem and delivers the highest amount of value with the least amount of resources as fast as possible, do whatever it takes to do it. Um, use any tool you have at hand, work with whoever whomever you have to. Uh and same, no. Uh, then if once you have identified what's worth building or the right thing to build, then it's about to build it right, how do you specify that as fast as possible with the minimal effort to be sure that you are out there as soon as possible to start getting those business outcomes as soon as you can or as quickly as you can? And honestly being open-minded, not being too attached to our process, you know, like double diamonds, and I think there are things that have been always kind of um driving a little bit what we're trying to do. Uh, just like letting go of all of those, and still being empathetic, being collaborative, and really caring for your craft, uh finding the right thing to build, build it as fast as you can, and just uh see results coming. I mean, that's the only way to keep it going.

SPEAKER_03 12:48

Um, noticing empathy is playing a big part in how you're entertained, even that it's a driver. How do you work with somebody who is low on an empathy scale?

SPEAKER_00 13:04

Being empathetic to that person, I think that's uh what actually disarmed them a little bit. Uh so trying to understand, okay, why is this person behaving this way? Uh, what is his point of view? Why is uh thinking, oh, no, what what's why is he holding that mindset and just trying to understand uh and trying to find which is uh an environment in which that person will still be um an effective collaborator with the team? That um happens quite often, I would say, but yeah, you've got to be empathetic to your stakeholders too in that regard.

SPEAKER_03 13:45

Um in the last five years, what have you become better at saying no to? Distractions, innovations, tools, etc.

SPEAKER_00 13:56

I've been better at saying no at tools. I think that a lot of um we look for band-aids for everything, and uh for example, when the process doesn't work, hey, let's buy a license to Dragon Boat or Trello or whatever, or hey, we need to run some CRM, hey, let's get a Salesforce uh instance, or it's like, no guys, I mean that's the tool, but that's not what we need, right? So uh I hate tools because they tend to be the quick resort that hides the problem. Um, so first needs to make it work without the tool, and then when you have a system and you need to scale, is when the tools need to kick in, because the tools essentially are ways to scale your operations, but they would they won't solve the problem for you if you don't understand how to do the job. That that's something I push really hard against people trying to build stuff uh or buying stuff right away or building software uh to solve a problem if we still don't understand how to work uh and how to solve that problem ourselves. Yeah, there's a lot of solution, people falling in love with the solution. Uh well, I wouldn't say with the tool, not even the solution, no, because the tool end up ends up making sometimes the problem even worse, actually. So it scales the problem and not the solution.

SPEAKER_03 15:25

Um how do you stay inspired and continue learning in a leadership role?

SPEAKER_00 15:32

Well, now with all the fear about the AI coming after us, I'm putting an hour a day in my calendar and I just keep studying every day something. And honestly, I don't care. And I say no to a lot of things at work because I know that at some point, if the company is not interested in me because they see I'm obsolete, they let me go. So I think it's an obligation that we all have to ourselves to find time within our uh working hours to keep learning. Uh, because companies are merciless, right? When when you are not useful anymore, they'll just let you go and they they nothing personal, right? This is what they what they tell you. It's like don't take it personally, we love you, but uh it's not enough to keep you. It is what it is, right? So yeah, I think we all have to be in that in that mood because if anything, um we know that this is this is the new normal. The new normal is things changing every day. Um it's not that the design profession is changing, it's it has changed. This is the new normal. The new normal is that things change constantly and you have to keep up with that change. Um the only way is to really be tuned to what's going on and building stuff on your own and trying things on your own, and you have to have time for that. Uh and it has to happen within the time you dedicate to work. It can be at the expense of your family, of your friends, of your travel, that that's beither because nobody's gonna pay you for that extra effort you are making.

SPEAKER_03 17:08

I don't know that I've heard that before, someone saying you've got to do it in your daytime. I I I really often hear, oh, I've got to do this hustle outside to be better inside those work hours. And I I think it's a refreshing approach.

SPEAKER_00 17:22

I I I try never do it outside of my working hours. Um because otherwise, I mean, you have no life, no, and and I'm getting better for the company by doing so. It's not that I'm watching TV or doing something that I shouldn't be doing, right? I becoming better as a leader and as a designer for them. So yeah, I I do it within my working hours. I have no, I'm not ashamed of it. I'm asking my team to do it within their working hours too. I'm asking all of my team to do it. Like, guys, this has changed. We have to be sharp. I want you to put one hour a day in your schedules so you guys study something new every day because that's that's the pace that we uh of change that we are seeing. And I know in the end it's gonna be better for everybody. So it's even even for the company. Uh that's um that I see it clearly. That's gonna be way better for everyone.

SPEAKER_03 18:20

Just quickly, what what four new things have you learned this week?

SPEAKER_00 18:26

Oh, maybe one big thing. Well, uh I did a big thing last uh year. I I got a certificate from Deep Learning AI on machine learning. I'm getting the second one, it's a bit deeper. The one last year was beginner level, this one is intermediate level. I have the goal to get uh my first job in AI by the end of this year. That has nothing to do with the bank, like a side hassle that uh I can um I want to I want to prove that to myself that at some point, if that's the only thing that it's uh left to do, that I can get a new job or something. Oh, but uh that's that's kind of the goal I have. And I'm saying it publicly to obligate myself and commit myself to achieve it. But that that's kind of the idea. I'm trying to get my first side hassle, and that will happen after my job hours, but uh trying to find uh something that I get paid for that has nothing to do with my current job based on what I've been learning these last few years. So it's kind of the idea behind it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 19:31

And what traits do you look for when you're hiring designers to work on AI or data-heavy uh projects?

SPEAKER_00 19:40

Uh uh I'm not particularly looking for designers to work on that, but when I hire designers, I I look for people that are that own their craft, you know, that they are proud of the quality of what they deliver, people that are proactive, uh, people that understand the balance between um progress and perfection, and people that are humble and good collaborators. That's to me um uh I think kind of the qualifiers to me. Um, because people that are good collaborators tend to be empathetic, also. They are they're able to listen, they're able to understand where people are coming from, and those those tend to be my go-to criteria when when talking to people and trying to see if they are a good fit for our culture or the things that we're trying to do. I think this design as a profession is fairly malleable. I mean, you can be working in AI today, you can be working in something else tomorrow, but uh if you have that curiosity, if you have that uh you know proactiveness and you have that uh ability to collaborate, you can essentially tackle anything. I think in the end, design is creative problem solving and can be applied to any problem that you are trying to solve. And uh I don't look for anything in particular for AI, even though we might we are working on it, but uh I don't hire for AI when I'm hiring designers.

SPEAKER_03 21:09

How do you filter out people who are excellent at interviews versus people who are excellent at the job?

SPEAKER_01 21:22

That's a tough one. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:28

That's a tough one. I I I think um you need to look into some of the personal honestly, the interview process is so broken that uh I think we all make hiding mistakes. Um it's almost impossible to avoid. But I think it might be stupid, though, but sometimes if people have done like very basic geeks, you know, like they work as a at McDonald's of the you know, they've been the pizza delivery guy. Or they've been some people that have been able to, I don't know, they get um get real and understand what others might be going through when they work, because those works happen to be the actual work of some people, right? And they've been doing it and they've been able to kind of uh put themselves in a situation that maybe they didn't need to, or or maybe they did, but um so I think they have some sense of reality, and I think that that's important, no, because um if you have a life that is too easy, uh you can lose a little bit of ground uh about what the actual the people you're gonna be designing for are actually going through, and then becomes very difficult to connect with their needs if uh if that's the case. But honestly, I mean I don't know, it's probably the worst answer of all the bad answers I just gave you in this session. But uh it's kind of fluffy because the the process is so broken up. Uh imagine deciding on the future of someone in maybe four conversations of 45 minutes each, it's just unfair, it's just not okay, uh right. Uh and and now when for every position you get a float of 500 uh uh portfolios, right? So I mean luck plays such uh an important role in everything that's going on in the market right now. Yeah, I don't know. I I made a lot of mistakes hiding, so I wouldn't I wouldn't say uh anything, anything else, but yeah.

SPEAKER_03 23:37

I think most of us that have done a lot of hiring would say the same thing. I would for sure. It's it's it's one of the most challenging things.

SPEAKER_00 23:46

It's very I I think the process is just nothing to do with the work. It's very difficult to assess people that might be neurodivergent. Uh I don't know. That's it's just optimized for one type of person that is the one that knows how to go through interviews really well. That might not necessarily be the one that you are looking for, right? So that's probably a space to ripe for innovation, honestly, because there should be a way to understand better how someone performs for a longer period of time while being paid. Uh, and then being able to make a final call after you've seen that people, that person performing actually in in in the conditions in which it's going to happen. I don't know exactly how because it takes a while for people to tune to an organization, but um the way it is now, it just it's back for both companies and for the poor people that are interviewing. Um it's not fair in in any possible way.

SPEAKER_03 24:52

Still work under the premise that it would take almost a year for a person to fully formalize into that role, understand the company, understand the role, and start excelling, which is such a drastic removal from that interview. A year ago, they could be a completely different person. So um, let's move on to something a little bit easier. Um, how do you keep a large design team aligned without stifling creativity?

SPEAKER_00 25:17

Um, yeah, you need to remove yourself from the day-to-day, uh, provide uh guidance and creating psychology, psychological safety for them to perform at their best. I think that's that they only provide enough guidance and enough of a vision for the teams to make it theirs and and then move on. Um and remove yourself from the day-to-day, remove yourself from micromanaging, remove yourself from being present, but uh to provide as much guidance as needed and remove as many blocks as possible, but let them drive. You have to let your team drive, otherwise it's um becomes if you get too much in the middle, it's not gonna work.

SPEAKER_03 26:04

How did you find a balance between doing the work that you love doing and managing the people who love doing the work that they're doing?

SPEAKER_00 26:14

I always take one or two projects for me. Like I always keep one or two hands-on projects that uh I I do work on it because uh yeah, this idea of the executive that was completely hands-off from work is also gone. It doesn't exist anymore. Like people, even if you manage uh large team, you have to be on tool and you have to be up to date, and otherwise your team lose respect. Like they go, this guy doesn't even know how I don't know, like um how Pigma works, right? So why would I trust his uh his point of view if he's not even understanding the problems I'm going through and using the tool? Or so you you gotta be, I think you need to keep hands-on work for yourself that doesn't uh compromise your ability to create the conditions for the team to succeed, but you have to be on it, you have to be in the on on the on the trade, like uh every day.

SPEAKER_03 27:13

Yeah, and what rituals or systems have you found most effective for team health at scale?

SPEAKER_00 27:24

Uh we're meeting once a week all together, right? Uh so we are we're having our design critiques. I think we have created a beautiful space where people feel uh confident to share their work at every stage. And that has helped a lot, actually. That's been um that's been beautiful to watch. Um that that's that has been one of the rituals that is helping us a lot, also because uh in such a large team, uh seeing the work helps others make make connections and then uh cross-pollinating across different teams, working on different initiatives. So that has been one that has worked really well. Um but it required a little bit of uh curation. We removed everyone that is not in design, and so we had to create a space where everybody felt um understood in a way. Uh, and we've been going through a few sessions on how to deliver feedback, and I think it's been it's been work, but that one has created a lot of um good to our team. So it's that's performing really well. Other than that, we have a few things. So we we have uh a few things we do to share some not very committal personal stuff, like uh we have our kind of meme and emoji competitions where people share the emoji of the week or something interesting they are watching or reading, uh something fun they did. And those are things that uh every participant can decide how deep they want to go uh on a personal level. Uh, but then you realize that even though we have one million different options to watch different shows on TV, maybe 50% of the team is watching the same one, uh, surprisingly. And and then there is a group of people that then connect after um after the meeting to talk about the show, right? And I think those things that happen to be very common when we work in person um are way more difficult when we are in remote, but at least these very non-committal things end up creating these personal connections between the team. At times I don't know and I don't care, right? So they they end up um getting like the fans of a particular show or people that are reading the same book or people that listen to the same music, uh, and they have the groups in which they they chatting with they they talk about it. Um that that has helped big time also, like using this uh looking for tools that allow people to share as much as they want about things that uh matter to them personally, uh, but then help them connect with the rest of the of the group at the personal level, I would say. Because you talk you'll you start talking about the show and then you're not talking about something more personal if you wish, but uh in an environment in which you feel more confident. Yeah, this is what it means. It's uh this is where I build my meme library that uh you outsource the meme library, I love it.

SPEAKER_03 30:33

I love it. Um there's uh Jordi, there's a New Zealand photographer, his name's Simon Devitt. He's an architectural photographer, his work is beautiful, but his stories on Instagram is a hundred percent memes. He is an absolute machine.

SPEAKER_00 30:51

You have to send me that name.

SPEAKER_03 30:53

I'll I'll scare you with it because his art is stunningly beautiful and his meme game is world class. So he's the he excels on I'll share it with you.

SPEAKER_00 31:02

Memes are beautiful because it it's a layer of communication that didn't exist before. It's is it's not text, it's something that uh has some emotional content that didn't exist and doesn't allow you, doesn't need you to use words to express uh an idea or a feeling. And I think that helped a lot during the pandemic, actually. Like it created that we actually got some meme fights in which you can only share memes and the entire team went in uh our Slack, and we just uh replying to each other only using memes, and it was amazing how much you can actually communicate uh using ObiDat.

SPEAKER_03 31:39

So we need to create a um carrot collective meme channel. You know, this has to happen. Let's keep going. Um, how do you handle disagreement or misalignment between design, product, and engineering?

SPEAKER_00 31:56

That that's a tough one because um design in the last few years has been kind of downgraded, if you wish, in our ability to drive. So sometimes we have to let it go, um, get some evidence and go back to the table with the evidence that uh kind of proves the point that we are making. And um little by little, not not with intention to uh finger point or or like play the told you so game, but uh with intention to say, okay, this has happened. So next time when design makes some of some objections, we happen to be listened uh uh more carefully. You know, I think that that's something that um it's taking longer than it used to. Um and when when it's not reactive, uh what we try to do is trying to find those willing conspirators that there are always in any organization. You always have the right, the product guy that understands design, the game guy that understands design, then you kind of team up with them, build something the way it's it is supposed to be built with through collaboration between the three of you, put it out there, get the results, and then show it to every everybody, and then everybody wants to be part of it, or at least some people that didn't know how to articulate that want to be part of it, and then you grow to critical mass, and you hope that that ends up being the way everybody works in the company. But those are cultural change processes that take more than a year or two sometimes to reach critical mass and then get the whole system uh transformed. But yeah, we have to be bringing evidence, and and that's the only way nowadays is bringing evidence back to the business so they understand uh how different the outcomes can be if you drive a process that is human-centric now from the beginning.

SPEAKER_03 33:51

Sounds like you're meaning to remove the subjectivity.

SPEAKER_00 33:56

Yes, because honestly, what has happened is that product has been made king in many occasions, and sometimes it's just the gut feel of a guy. Uh and uh we have been running some resonance testing from that gut feel, and people have been telling us no, this is not going to work, right? So this I don't see the value, I don't understand it. Why why would I engage with this at all? And sometimes we've been shot and asked to, okay, it's gonna be this way, okay. Then in the end, you're given the helm, so we need to we disagree but commit to whatever you told us, no. But then next time we hope that you listen. But uh there's been a lot of that uh lately. Um yeah, not only at the bank, everywhere in the industry, in the innovation industry. I think the the this product-led era that we we are through, it's been painful for design. But uh the only way is to show evidence that um there's a better way to do things that doesn't require product to let go, it just requires them to be able to collaborate. Because at the end of the day, I don't care who leads, but I care that we are all given a word in the in the sausage making, right? Like we all have to be together. Product can can uh and should talk about design, and design should and has to talk about engineering, and engineering can talk about design and product, and that should be totally fine. At the end of the day, each one of us is accountable for a part of the value prop. We need to define it and and move move on. Uh but things get way more powerful when people are able to collaborate that way because the products and services they design they happen to be much more resilient. They have every point of view, you have the synthesis of all of those points of view into something that is much better than each one of our points of view individually. It's much better than the sum of the of the three different parts. So uh, but not everybody knows that people think that sometimes that's kind of letting go power, uh, people that are not very principled, they don't know how to argument why they think something is right or wrong, uh, and then they become protective. Uh so I think there's uh a lot of um a lot of good reasons why people behave in certain ways, um, but just have to prove them, okay. There's a way to do it better. Uh next time let's do it that way. Because it's not about you letting go, and it's not about you not making the decisions you need to make. It's about all of us working together in making this a much better product or service. But we haven't had to let go so much.

SPEAKER_03 36:45

How do you teach your time your team when it's time to fight for what you believe is right, and when it's time to acquiesce for the good of the harmony and the broader team.

SPEAKER_00 37:02

That's a very tough one. For example, we fight to death when we believe what we've been asked to do is unethical. Um there's no ethnogray zone there. We won't accept that, we don't want to sign up that uh for that. If in the end the only thing that we are risking is bad business, we bring evidence to the table, but at some point, if the relationship is getting uh rotten, we let go. And we wait for the next time because there will be a next time. Um but we also make it very clear that uh if we brought the evidence, we found or we proposed a different way to go about it. Uh it was rejected, and these are the outcomes that we are that the company is uh harvesting. With the hope that next time it's gonna be different, right? But someone will be like, okay, yeah, these guys already mentioned that, but we move forward anyhow, and the thing is not moving the needle. Like uh probably there should be maybe next time they'll listen. It's not warranted, but uh some people will, some people will change. Yeah, I think when you you you need to avoid the foobart state, right? Um if the personal relationships end up being broken, then it becomes impossible to fix. And I think that's where you need to put a little bit the limit because otherwise, once personally people can't get along with each other, they will they won't be able to create anything that's meaningful um together. So that's that's uh uh by all means the the limit you need to avoid. Because otherwise you'll you're gonna need to break the team and and build a different construct for that team. Um it's hard to repair personal relationships when when they break. It's very difficult.

SPEAKER_03 39:03

Um it reminds me of the trust equation. People are more likely to agree with people they like. Yeah, the goal shouldn't be to like to be liked, but if you need to get buying, um how do you decide where AI should enhance a user experience versus where it might overcomplicate them?

SPEAKER_00 39:29

Um we are not looking at the user experience yet. We are starting to we are working heavily on AI to streamline our process. And for example, doing all the tedious tasks that people hate doing. So we are building an agent that does all the visual quality of our Figma files, so designers don't need to don't need to do it because they hate doing it and they do a very lousy job, right? So and they don't feel they're gonna be replaced by the AI. They actually love the guy because he's kind of this synthetic uh quality assurance um technician that checks at their files and tells them what things need to be fixed to make them to make their design spec more compliant or more consistent. Um I think that's the point for us, is that and I think we'll apply the same when we end up touching the end customer. Like, how do we get to get this overenthusiastic uh synthetic entity to do the stuff that people hate doing? And so they can they can have more time to do the things that they love doing. Like, I don't know. For a small business, managing cash flow, for example, like something that kills them. Uh a lot of small businesses end up closing because they don't know how to manage their cash flow, and the business is okay, but actually they run out of money and they can't pay. Then so I think the uh taxes is a typical one, I would say. No, but there are things that uh people hate doing that machines, I think, will be excellent at doing, honestly. Uh, or at least they won't do it, they'll do it just as bad as people do, uh, but much faster. So I think that in the end, still still an advantage, if you wish. Um so that's kind of the approach that we we are taking. We are being extremely cautious with exposing AI to the end customer. Uh, because um banking is a reputation-based business. And uh I think still still unreliable enough to not to trust to give it um control over the relationship with the customer, because if they mess up, they can mess up the entire business. So it's um we are looking at using it as a way to first understand um how to use it effectively, which are the types of problems that are worth uh solving, and then at some point I think we're gonna start exposing it more to our end customers. But we need to find ways where if things break, uh, we'll not uh damage the uh the brand. So that's the most important thing that we need to preserve because in banking, if people don't trust you, money flies away and and can be the end of you continuing on with that theme.

SPEAKER_03 42:18

What what's the framework for evaluating um emerging technologies, especially in a uh risk-adverse environment like banking?

SPEAKER_00 42:27

Uh yeah, so for us at this moment is understanding um that we cannot compromise uh data integrity uh and data security. That's that's number one goal for us. Um yeah, and the the second one is understanding that you are solving uh a true use case. I think there's been this kind of peanut buttering of AI over everything, but uh really uh most of it is quite useless. Uh and most of those features are dying unused because they really don't solve anybody's problems. So I think that's the other thing. So are you solving solving a true problem? Uh is so I think utility is a key consideration, security is a key consideration, and I would say those are probably the two most important ones. So uh if it has no true utility, if people don't see the value, like why bother? Because I don't know. You might make headlines of a newspaper, but in the end, nobody's gonna use that. So it's just gonna be what you thought was what going to become an asset ends up becoming a liability that you have to maintain, but actually nobody uses. So I think that's the worst possible scenario for a company. Um in our case, uh security is very important too. I think those two things are are critical to. To risk introducing a new technology uh to the market.

SPEAKER_01 44:08

I hope you hire me after the two interviewing, yes, yes. This is the interview, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 44:17

Because you're only three, it looks like a panel, it looks like a panel. It looks like you're interviewing me for a job or something.

SPEAKER_03 44:22

Quite the opposite. It's not interviewing. I'm just trying to absorb all of this absolute brilliant information you're sharing, Jordi. So um we're we're very close to the end, and then we'll let you know whether we make an offer or not. What's something you believe about design or innovation that most people would disagree with?

SPEAKER_00 44:43

Yeah. I think the uh about innovation to me is that building should be the last resort. You should always reuse uh what already exists. Like uh in the end, and if you can do it manually, you should do it manually. Um because in the end, technology is just uh a tool to scale. Um, technology allows you to run your operation with the same people at uh much bigger scale. But if you are not able to define a business that you can run using a uh phone that brings back money, don't build anything, honestly. Uh and I think in that regard, uh I mean the low-code, no code uh tools kind of help uh because they they help you validate if you can if that business is actually worth anything. Um but sometimes I think the excess of resources is the worst scenario in which you can find yourself. Um because you start building stuff just because you can. I have the money, I have the people, why not? But uh, but then that ends up being waste. Uh and the problem is that once you commit all that effort to anything, there's so much uh sunken cost bias, right? Like you you need to salvage it at any cost, and and things get even worse. It's like okay, don't don't spend a dime, just prove that the thing works, prove that the people see value on it, and then once you need to scale, then build something that scales properly accordingly. But uh yeah, I think what working with uh in innovation with uh scarcity mentality, I know that abundance is is the word, I don't know. You need to have this abundance mindset, but not in innovation. Innovation, you should always have this scarce uh mindset, and you should um feel blessed by your constraints. Like the more constraint, the better. Uh like these guys in Dipsy. The constraints made them build something that guys had to put billions into it by a hundredth of the cost of what uh it cost uh OpenAI to build it. Why? Because you are in Silicon Valley, you have access to the best uh engineers, you have access to all the venture capital money you can imagine. Just build this monster. Uh not all it's in many occasions is the perfect recipe for failure. Um, because you don't uh you should be building only when it's strictly necessary, and not everybody feels that way, precisely because today um the tools make it way too easy, right? So but yeah, that's the one thing I have to fight a lot with uh a lot of people. That uh no, let's let's prove it. Let's prove that it has value, let's prove that someone will have to pull their wallet and and pay for it, right? Because if that's not proved, uh any investment we we make, it's just wasted money.

SPEAKER_03 47:52

I'm cognizant that we're coming up to the end of our time, and I'm gonna ask a question uh very different from all the other ones. This is our first ask me anything. Um, you've shared some amazing insights with us, uh, and I hope that's an inadvertent thumbs down.

SPEAKER_00 48:07

Um yes. But actually, it wasn't even if I was like that, so it's very weird.

SPEAKER_03 48:12

I got caught yesterday. I did this, like I was kind of holding onto my arm and it did it. I was like, oh my god. Um okay, so this is our first ask me, this is our first ask me anything. You've shared some amazing information with us. What is one question you think we should make a tradition that we ask in every ask me anything moving forward?

SPEAKER_00 48:34

Um I I was reading this book. It's it's it's a beautiful book. Uh that is called How to Know a Person, the Art of Uh Seeing and Being Seen. It says something beautiful. It says that uh paying attention is the most is the purest form of love uh that you can show to anybody, and I think it's that's a beautiful reflection. But the guy is asking, he has a chapter about questions to ask, right? And there's one that really uh struck me that he says uh, ask always a person, what would you do if you were not afraid? So I think it's uh it's a beautiful question. Uh uh he it has a collection of other questions because he's saying that um he always, even with people that he just met, he has this very tough question. So I wouldn't say tough, but questions that are like very deep, right? Like um and but this one actually I found that was very interesting uh as a as a question. And that book is is very good. Did you guys want to uh regain some hope in humanity? I needed to read something positive about human beings, uh, and that book helped me uh uh a little bit. So it's uh it's a good one. It's a good one. And the chapter about question question is a is a is uh is a beautiful one. Yeah, the questions are very good.

SPEAKER_03 50:07

Pastor, let's let's get the link to that book and we'll share it with the link to this Ask Me Anything. Uh Jordi, I said that was my last question, but you're never gonna believe it. I've got one more. What would you do if you weren't a higher? I just came up with it myself.

SPEAKER_00 50:29

Yeah. I wouldn't be working for anybody if I didn't need um if I didn't need the money to uh feed my family, honestly. That's that's the reality. I need to procure, I need to provide for my family, and this is why I'm working for someone. Uh and and for whatever reason, all of my life it's been the case. No, I'm never had the kind of the financial situation. I tried a few things to become rich, but I failed in all of them. Uh so I'm still needing to work to live. So that's if I was not afraid, I'll try to build my own stuff or or build a company I where I can I I can drive or I can manage the way I want and and actually fail, right? Because I I think at some point you need to make money to survive. But that'd be the thing I would do. I I would stop working for anybody else uh and start working with friends and doing something meaningful. I think that that'd be the one thing that I would do if I wasn't afraid. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 51:30

Um, Jordi, this is our first Ask Me Anything, and I think you've set the bar exceptionally high. Um, I I want to say thank you.